Transcript of a taped conversation between Barry, Jim and DM on Sunday, October 29, 1995. First portion occurred in Fred Meyer deli lunch space where we sat and waited for GC and Larry.

[BARRY] What happened when you stuck you hands in this stuff and it got in your hands?

[JIM] They bled.

[BARRY] From the gold coming out the back?

[JIM] Metal wires.

[BARRY] What did it feel like?

[JIM] I was going to die and I didn't care.

[BARRY] What did it feel like when it first happened?

[JIM] Static electrical shocks.

[BARRY] Where were you when it happened?

[JIM] I was standing on an orange crate. Naw, actually I was standing on something like an overturned white bucket or something.

[BARRY] Was it at RH's or was it at T's or what?

[JIM] It was at the mining site.

[BARRY] Bonanza mine?

[JIM] Below it. Right up the street from JB's. We used the Quickie sterilizer tank for our carbon air cell, with a couple of fans mounded to it. Moved about 400 cfm of air. And low and behold, when I had that leaky union because the neoprene seal was getting etched out, I grabbed a hold of it to tighten it and that's when it shocked me.

[BARRY] It was like a shock, like a . . .

[JIM] It was a dull electrical shock, but often, like tscht … tscht .. tscht. But not all that gnarly. Little ones, dull. Then I started seeing flashes and I tasted metal and the next thing I know I let go cause I knew something was wrong with this and when I did by that time I was seeing a good solid blue. I let go and that's when I noticed my hands were bleeding. And I continued to get shocks for the first couple of steps and I felt overwhelmed to throw up and I don't know if I did or didn't.

[BARRY] Then what happened with the gold fibers all over your hands?

[JIM] Like little dinky wires like the kind we see in the charcoal. Those little thin wires it was just like that. Like thin little razor blade pieces coming out. And so . . .

[BARRY] You pulled them out?

[JIM] A few of them. A lot of them.

[BARRY] How long were they?

[JIM] Long. Actually I can remember a couple of them were way long like running up next to my tendons in my finger. I could feel it cutting me pulling it out. It was weird.

[BARRY] But metallic?

[JIM] Definitely metallic. Both T and myself had these yellow fibers that kept growing out from underneath our fingernails. I could go over charcoal for weeks afterward and go like that over wet charcoal and yellow fibers would grow out from under my fingernails. Same with T. Same with his wife.

[BARRY] But he didn't get that . . .

[JIM] He didn't get that sick. His wife got sicker than he did.

[BARRY] So then what happened with the jar when you left it out in the cold?

[JIM] The first one was some STP, muddy water from some samples that we took from up there and nuked them in his [T's] garage. We were still trying to figure out what's up. It did not work well. I mean we did get some gold but a lot of it that was extracted until we had the air cell going full force, when it evaporated and dried it turned into fly ash.

[BARRY] Why do you call it fly ash?

[JIM] Because when you'd reach for it, it would fly away.

[BARRY] What do you mean by that?

[JIM] When you reach for it, it moved away. That's it.

[BARRY] Where did it move?

[JIM] Anyplace it had to. Up the side of a jar, out of a pan. Unless it was wet you couldn't handle it. But if it was before the charcoal was added, like in that clay water, that stuff froze and gave us that double pyramid. That stuff was filled with that gold, because when we nuked it that was the first time we saw stuff volatilizing out of the solution. That was a solution of the silt right below their final settling pond gate before it went out back into the creek, which was plenty muddy. It was a sample of the silt right there and we literally had so much microfine gold in that, that we doubled it and doubled it till we couldn't see any more microfine gold in the jar with STP.

[BARRY] Did that have anything to do with the pyramid; the STP?

[JIM] Wouldn't think so.

[BARRY] Was it a flat pyramid or steep?

[JIM] I don't think it was the same proportions as your regular pyramid. I think it was about the same… The height was about equal to the base.

[BARRY] That's a regular pyramid.

[DM] No.

[JIM] It's time and a half isn't it?

[BARRY] No I think it's about equal. I'm not sure.

[DM] The radius to a corner; center to a corner is supposed to be equal to the height. It's supposed to be like a sphere.

[BARRY] Right. Something like that. Yea.

[BARRY] And that happened at Bonanza Mine?

[JIM] It was at T's house where we noticed it. Because it was sitting outside; out by his garage and one of the kids walked by and saw it and said "ooh look at this". Because a pyramid was like that way and a pyramid was like that way [indicated that one pyramid was upright and another was upside down with gold between the bases] and there was that little colloidal gold, murky layer in the middle; between the two.

[BARRY] What does that mean? I mean that is bizarre.

[BARRY] It means, I would guess that it has something to do with the crystalline form of the…

[JIM] Colloidium form monoatomic organic materials and that's stereo chemistry represented. Which is a mirror image of the other one. And they at random create in equal amounts.

[BARRY] Time frame; is that near the time you got your hands in it?

[JIM] No that's long before.

[BARRY] Weeks before?

[JIM] Yep. I got my hands in it just before I went to my parents house and proceeded to be unconscious for about a week.

[BARRY] How come your parents didn't put you into the hospital?

[JIM] I already went. Actually I went to Salt Lake City for a shot after I got nuked, didn't I? Yea I went home to Salt Lake City then I went back to eastern Oregon to try to get some [pieces to it]. That's when they told me I had better get my matters in order because my liver was quitting and my kidneys were failing from the heavy metals. And then I went to eastern Oregon again to try to get some pieces and that's when I took those samples and sent them off.

[BARRY] How many [days did it last]?

[JIM] Five or something. It takes a while before it really gets in there and starts rootin' you out. It took about twenty or thirty days before it really hurt me bad. But I still had the background hallucinations and I still, definitely, had the Midas touch for a number of days; if not a week. And then before I could get back to Salt Lake City a second time; and that's when I went to my folks and felt like dying and went from there to RB's for a couple of weeks. Then I went back to Salt Lake to get matters in order and then to RB's.

[BARRY] And in between those times you slept for a week or something?

[JIM] Yea. I couldn't even drive myself to Bend. I had to get a ride to Bend that time to my folks' house because I couldn't drive. That was about twelve days after I got nuked initially. I couldn't stay awake and there was static electricity popping off of me all the time and all kinds of weird shit. I gave people metal slivers if I shook their hands and shit.

[BARRY] You had bleeding hands?

[JIM] Yea I still had bleeding hands. I had those for four months.

[BARRY] Still pulling metal out?

[JIM] Yep. DD got metal slivers sitting in the passenger seat, where I got to ride to Bend in, in my car. That's when we decided to put it in the poly bag because every time I drove it I would start feeling sick.

[BARRY] Every time you drove your car?

[JIM] Yea. If I spent much time in there, I would start hallucinating and doing the…

[BARRY] Was that all from you or did you have some of the stuff sitting in the trunk for a while?

[JIM] I had some of the stuff in the trunk and it [the car] was downstream from where it [the leaky union] was spraying. It gave it that nice gold metal flake [in the paint job]. Literally the motor had gold impregnated in the dirt and grease on the motor.

[BARRY] With the hood closed?

[JIM] With the hood closed. Just from the mist blowing off that leaky o-ring. And my car hood was really good looking. It was a burgundy maroon with gold metal flake. Yea it looked good. Wasn't too healthy but it looked good.

[BARRY] So what did you have in your trunk?

[JIM] A sample, two or three, a pump, a separator I was playing with because I could see this goopy stuff and other stuff in the syrup when I nuked the clay water samples. I forgot all about those. Shit. I was making Plexiglas centrifugal separators because there was liquid stuff in the clay water that I wanted to separate out with the gold particulate and let the light mud separate out so we could clean it up. And so I was working on those a lot at the time. Cause that goop, that polymer stuff was what I wanted to collect. I thought they were polymers and that's what I called them. I thought it was a light, clear oil in clay and water.

[BARRY] Hudson talks about polymers a lot. In several places.

[JIM] I never heard that part yet. You never gave me the first part of the tape where he talked about all the neat stuff he observed in all the testing he had to do. All you did was sent me the spiritual part. Here I am; dare to be great.

[BARRY] I've got the whole video tape.

[DM] For a thousand dollars, you too can be great.

[JIM] I grate everybody now anyway.

[BARRY] That's great.

[DM] An ingrate.

[JIM] That's for sure, just ask anybody.

[BARRY] OK, so what happened with the polymers in your car? What happened to you car? Your car had to be…

[JIM] I couldn't use it. All the bushings and stuff turned to mush.

[BARRY] The bushings? What bushings?

[JIM] In the front end and all that stuff where the stuff had sprayed, the rubber broke down. It could be that they caught too much sunlight and went flash and broke down the rubber. I don't know.

[BARRY] How about the vinyl inside?

[JIM] The paint came off of all my trim pieces too. All of them.

[BARRY] All of the rubber trim pieces?

[JIM] On the outside like around the . . . had vinyl roof and it's painted the same color. It was a Euro type finish and the paint came off all the chrome. Just came right off. And you could see the stuff that was gold finished of course it stripped down to the base metal wherever this stuff run those polymers just picked up the gold. Same with the apartment I lived in. They had to rip out the carpet and all that crap. There were picture frames that were gold . . .there was this stuff that was creeping out of my acrylic sweaters and stuff went across these . . . you could see where it ran across all that . . .

[DM] Do you feel like it has a catalytic effect then?

[JIM] Undoubtedly! It made more. I didn't think I'd ever get it quenched.

[BARRY] Do you feel it made more of the monoatomic . . .

[JIM] I felt like I made more is what I felt like.

[DM] I'd say that was catalytic if it was pulling gold off of the picture frames and off the trim on the car.

[JIM] Yes, just like the stuff I made to go get the gold, the getter, never got shut down. That's how I took it. I couldn't shut it down; it just kept on going and going.

[BARRY] The Sorcerers Apprentice.

[JIM] And I was still the carbon air cell for the stuff I was sweating out. And that's when I started throwing away my clothes after wearing them once. And that's when things started getting better.

[DM] DK needs to get the whole story here.

[JIM] And at this point, after six or eight months of being at RB's, I was finally at the point I could stay awake for about two hours a day.

[BARRY] When you were sleeping did you know what was happening? Did you have any experiences or any . . .

[JIM] Couldn't tell you. I can just tell you everybody fucking annoyed me. Wherever I was was a lot better than what I was coming back to. Heh, heh, heh.

[BARRY] But you can't remember what it was?

[JIM] Nope. No idea. Just, whish I was out there.

[BARRY] What was the nature of the annoyance?

[JIM] What I can tell you that they had a bunch of the doctors over to the B's house after their big success on their cancer chemo-therapy system that uses an old type diathermy machine with a coil that is laid on the surface that heats in at a certain distance. In order to keep the chemo-therapy more active when it's hot. And so they wanted to make it hot on the tumor so it would be more active there for a lower dose. And so they had this big party and she had all these doctors around and said "hey Jim come here". And I'd go over there and they'd have whisky and water in a drink and I could just put my finger over the top of it and go like this and stir and these fibers would start coming out from under my fingernails and stuff. But the drink would start swirling at the same time and the color would leave. And it would leave this clear oil on top of the water where the booze was. And they would all go whoa. And we were getting static sparks and stuff while I was doing all this. But she thought she'd make a clown of me while I was out so she said "so you know what this celebration is about don't ya?" And I said "naw". She goes "well, you're Mr. Engineer so how would you do a system to heat a tumor and not the adjacent tissues?" And I said, "it's simple, I'd use a variable pitch helix coil and attach it to an RF source" and turned around and walked away. And she said "you fucking bastard" because it took them a year and a half to get them that answer.

[DM] That they had already had the answer?

[JIM] They had the answer and that's what it was. It took them a year and a half and I just came up with it off the top of my head. And I couldn't tell you why. But it took her fun right out of her party because they were just feeling all hauck-a-neuy we did it. And all secretive and everything.

[DM] Did you have any other psychic type experiences like that?

[JIM] Only if I was playing craps. For a long time I could guess four out of six dice.

[BARRY] For a long time when?

[JIM] Until a month ago maybe. Maybe even still. It went on and on real long. You know like three five's, a four and a one and I don't know what the last one is, you know, and that kind of thing.

[BARRY] How come you don't win the lottery?

[JIM] Because I don't play it. Besides if the computer generates it, it is not real.

[BARRY] What's the difference?

[JIM] There's a big difference. I don't know why. It doesn't happen. It's still a random event. And it doesn't really happen. It is just an electronic impulse. It's different.

[BARRY] How long was there color? You saw color for a while.

[JIM] While I was at RB's, I still saw color until I started taking hydrogen peroxide and it all quit like that. About three doses of hydrogen peroxide and I quit seeing color and I quit hearing audio hallucinations.

[BARRY] What were the audible hallucinations?

[JIM] Voices I could and could not make out.

[BARRY] You could and could not?

[JIM] Yea, some I couldn't understand; too far back. Others were as clear as sitting right next to me.

[BARRY] What was the general content of them?

[JIM] Couldn't tell you. All over the map. Everything from . . .

[BARRY] Educational sort of stuff?

[JIM] Nah.

[BARRY] Philosophical?

[JIM] Some. But more with science discussions. You know me that's pretty much what I talk about with everybody.

[BARRY] So it was like you were having scientific discussions with these voices?

[JIM] Yea, on occasion. Or think conversations.

[BARRY] This is what has happened to DK too. We don't think you are . . .

[JIM] I know I'm not. [????????????] get a lot crazier than he did. He can get dysfunctionally crazy with it. I couldn't tell you where I was. I left gold fingerprints in briquettes for a long time. And could stir drinks without touching it and could hold on to a two liter bottle of Diet Coke and turn it into a dark, ugly syrup and this clear layer of oily stuff about half an inch thick. And I could make it fizz and foam just by hanging on to it and do that without even opening the seal. So what ever it did I thought I was protonizing the r-groups. Which means that I was altering the orbits of the hydrogen and carbon molecules to make them turn into an r-group instead of simple hydrogen and carbon in a single bond. The r-group; two hydrogens and a carbon molecule. For the protonization to take place it needs to loose a proton from the nucleus before that happens. And I could do that through the plastic of a two liter container without even opening it.

[BARRY] Could you do that through metal?

[JIM] By holding it in my hands.

[BARRY] [?] in your hands could you do it?

[JIM] I don't know.

[BARRY] But you could do it with a two liter.

[JIM] Two liter. That's what I noticed because I drank Diet Coke all the time. That's all I did when I was awake is drink Diet Coke and went back to bed. I got back down to about a thirty two inch waist or something there for a while. I was not too healthy.

[BARRY] Did you ever hear a single note?

[JIM] I, you know, heard him talking about that and I can't remember if I had ringing in my ears or not.

[BARRY] What about the light?

[JIM] Yea, I can see the light every now and again. And I did when I nuked that crystal. It was the same color as what I saw. That crystal glowed in the bottom of that [saucer] for easily twenty seconds after I turned off the power.

[BARRY] Did you see it?

[DM] No.

[JIM] He can't.

[DM] Yes I can.

[JIM] You cannot. Not in the daylight.

[BARRY] You saw the color for how long?

[JIM] A long time. Still can.

[BARRY] How long was it before you could see again in the dark?

[JIM] Oh shit, almost two years.

[BARRY] Two years?

[JIM] I couldn't drive at night for about two years.

[BARRY] Because it was too bright?

[JIM] Because it was too bright. I had no black background. It was, at first, a homogenous glow and at the end it got kinda grainy and wispy. Kinda like the [???] just before it quenches. Kinda like that. In and out.

[BARRY] You're sure that is the color of it? The [look of the fog]?

[JIM] Yea, reminds me of it. It was neat. If you're going to hallucinate it's not a bad color. It was bluer than that though.

[BARRY] You said your eyesight was better for a while?

[JIM] It's still. It's still good.

[BARRY] It got better in the dark and stuff?

[JIM] Still is. Real good. I can still read in little or no light. Real well. I can do work on stuff. For being forty years old I can [?] with no problem.

[DM] Before the trailer was plugged in all the time [?] light on.

[JIM] Any more than that's uncomfortable for me. Artificial light bothers me, sunlight doesn't.

[BARRY] You noted that there were some changes of attitude too?

[JIM] I think that that could be best told by somebody else.

[BARRY] Well you mentioned that you were not as . . .

[JIM] I don't think that I'm the over achiever, you know kill myself to be great or for American dollars any more. Right now it doesn't matter. I mean I could eat once a day and by God I'm fairly content. That's not necessarily good. I do get motivated and excited about stuff when the motivation strikes and you know I'm jumping up and down and going like crazy. But otherwise, no, I don't hardly care. I mean I don't get excited about making piles of money anymore or anything. It doesn't do it. And I don't care if it's the scum of the earth or some clown in a three piece suit it's all the same to me, which wasn't the case before.

[DM] We can see that. People that make me uncomfortable around Jim's house are as welcome as anybody else.

[JIM] It's all pretty much the same. It's surprising I haven't been ripped off more. But then not many people will step into that electrical trap. [Laughter] Some of it is likely to reach out and grab you.

[BARRY] Is there anything else?

[JIM] I will say there was another thing that still happens a lot. You know with a lot of people you think something is going to happen and maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. But the percentage of this happening right now and what's going on is probably in the ninety percentile range for some time.

[DM] Predicting events?

[JIM] No. When something is coming down right now with someone thinking what they are going to do is something that I knew with ninety percent certainty. Now it's back to like ten or twenty. But there I knew exactly what somebody was going to do before they did it. With real good regularity.

[DM] Do you miss that? Would you like to be that way all the time?

[JIM] No, I didn't feel very good at the time. I knew that stuff but I didn't care if I lived or died at all.

[BARRY] Why was that a bad feeling?

[JIM] Because I also felt sick.

[BARRY] And?

[JIM] I couldn't do anything. I couldn't talk to people. It's like eh, eh, eh, fragmented sentences.

[BARRY] We've got two things going on. We've got lead and arsenic poisoning and we've got the gold.

[JIM] So we think.

[BARRY] So we think?

[JIM] The alchemists don't say that white gold is it. The alchemists say that white gold, the monoatomic, is close. But it is not the philosopher's stone.

[DM] Now which alchemists were telling you that?

[JIM] I'll just have say some of O's connective buddies that were involved in making gold plating solutions, forever. And they were a family of from father to son for hundreds of years. And they say, "close, it's got some interesting effects and it may have some medicine effects but it ain't it.

[BARRY] What is it then?

[JIM] They don't say.

[DM] He got a dose of monoatomic lead, maybe that had something to do with it.

[BARRY] Now, gold isn't it, monoatomic gold isn't it, but high energy monoatomic could be it?

[JIM] I don't know. There's a whole bunch of stuff in that there list of metals that do change atomic and . . .

[BARRY] Including plutonium and . . .

[JIM] O knows of this place in eastern Oregon or western Idaho that has clays that are absolutely known to heal with the alchemists. They go there to get clays when they have problems. Because when you eat it it makes you feel better.

[DM] Is he willing to tell you where?

[JIM] He's willing to tell us where and to go get some. That's what he wants to do. Cause he thinks salt water [is the question]. He says "I keep getting this premonition of salt water as the key thing. And this is long before . . . he's been saying it for a month. And the other thing was this clay. It's the balance of materials that makes it death or healing.

[DM] If it is off a little bit you get death?

[JIM] Or some side effects.

[BARRY] Can you get some of this?

[JIM] I was planning on him meeting with us and discussing both his claim and what he'd like to do to field test it and help construct a trailer that does this all in one thing. And go try various locations, work the chemistry to find out what the interferences are to what and get it all documented so it can be . . . That's more where he's seeing his bit. And he needs an out. He has been stuck in a rut for literally years past that he hasn't broken. You know. He still has people coming out and hounding him. He's got people . . . it's driving him nuts. And he's just saying "I need to get a new project; I need to get out and start living again because I'm a trap with my own past."

[BARRY] Well why don't we just include him on the trip and stop in at the clay beds on the way over?

[JIM] That sounds like an excellent idea. Have him pick some of that up and let us nuke some and let him take it back. I like that.

This is the end of the session at Fred Meyer with DM, Barry and Jim present. The following session occurred in Jim's trailer the next day. Barry, Jim and DM were present.

[BARRY] When you put your hand over the stuff what happened?

[JIM] Northwest Environmental Labs where V works. I sent a sample to them collected from an acrylic sweater hanging in my closet. It wasn't on location, it was just in the apartment where I was living so this stuff came off of me most likely. As it were, you could put the material that would be clinging to the acrylic in a bottle and it would want to come out. Especially if I had water in the acrylic, like if I tried to wash it off and add water to it. Then it would spray out of the bottle, profusely. Which is how they received their sample. But I found if I used a coupler like alcohol mixed with the water it was easier to put in the bottle. Otherwise it's tough stuff. Nonetheless when it got to the test lab and they opened it up it sprayed all over, at which point they called RB's house and said "ha, ha, ha, real funny Jim; how did you do this trick. Cause we don't know. How'd you do this?"

[BARRY] So do you think that it was hydrophobic?

[JIM] I always thought it was hydrophilic.

[BARRY] What was it coming after, you?

[JIM] That's probably why. The other thing I noticed about it as well as anybody else that handled my clothes or whatever, was the shit you could not wash off. You could take Dawn dish washing soap and hot water and scrub your hands and you'd still have it on there. And that is why I thought it was a polymer. Like Armor All.

[BARRY] You said you had some in a jar and you put your hand over the jar and it would float up to your hand?

[JIM] No. We had fly-ash as we called it in a jar. White . . .

[BARRY] Powder?

[JIM] Well, yea, it was kind of a flake. Little flakes that came off of wedges between the acrylic in the carbon air cell. We had some of those in a jar and you would reach for it and they would move to the other side of the jar and stuff. Especially in a garage wall lined with tools. You know iron tools hanging everywhere. It was pretty alive.

[BARRY] What do you mean by pretty alive?

[JIM] It moved a lot. By itself.

[BARRY] You could sit there and watch it move?

[JIM] Ah, it would be more like it was [?] [?] up and stuff like that.

[BARRY] Where was that?

[JIM] In T's garage sitting on the window sill. Probably still there. RH's garage had a bunch of that fly-ash, too, in it. Lots of it.

[BARRY] Now you have a sample . . . GC may have a sample of some of this stuff.

[JIM] I used to have some in a Popov Vodka bottle.

[BARRY] Where would that be? Do you think GC might have it?

[JIM] I'm hoping. I think he gave it to Derrick.

[BARRY] Shit.

[JIM] It's a light tan, acrylic sweater and copper tubing in a [jar and]

[DM] bottle.

[BARRY] Why the copper tubing?

[JIM] I don't know. It seemed to like it better.

[BARRY] The flash in the pan, where did that happen?

[JIM] Unfortunately, T's garage. And that's what nuked his wife.

[BARRY] Now that was in sunlight?

[JIM] I was going to dry some of this stuff inside of a heater, a wire wound resistor.

[BARRY] Oh, you put it inside of a wire wound resistor?

[JIM] Um hm.

[BARRY] Oh goody.

[JIM] And I was going to dry it. It stayed in there just fine until it got dry and then it went poof, and a big flash and that's how I got the first metal flake paint job. We noticed profound effects physiologically after that flash of material.

[BARRY] What kind of effects?

[JIM] Just like the other day at DM's

[BARRY] Kind of spacey?

[JIM] But I don't know if it's heightened awareness or less in light of the fact that when you quit smoking cigarettes you feel spacey too but that's from increased awareness.

[BARRY] Did you ever see a flash in sunlight? You thought you saw it out of the corner of your eye?

[JIM] Repeatedly.

[BARRY] And it was gone at that point?

[JIM] Yep, nothing left, nothing, just a flash and unlike David's description, I remember a distinct poof. It did make sound that I can recall.

[BARRY] Implosion?

[JIM] No, I don't think so. I think it was more a . . . . I don't know. I just flat don't know.

[BARRY] How was your car finally disposed of?

[JIM] RB called Chrysler credit and made a claim on the insurance for it to be considered totaled because the legal definition of totaled is no longer usable. And they put it in a trailer and hauled it off. I was told they put it in a poly bag in a landfill, because they put in charcoal canisters and little air pumps that pulled a sixty second sample off the interior of the car and they put it in a bag and sent it off to a test lab and they came back and said "what the hell is it?" At that point it was pretty much conclusive that nobody had a clue what it was and so there I convalesced waiting to die and it didn't happen.

[BARRY] Oh, shoot.

[JIM] Yea, some can say that.

[JIM] and Barry left Jim's trailer in Barry's pickup on the way to KC's house. We decided to keep recording on the way over. The recording was started in mid sentence.

[JIM] . . . formed condensate drops. I could ride in a brand new car one time and two days later I would see it going down the road and the side where I was on and right where I was sitting the glass would be fogged from condensate drops forming on the glass when the rest of the windows were clear.

[BARRY] Two days later?

[JIM] You know it's just when I happened to notice it. It was real weird. That's one of the things I definitely remember. Everybody goes "well big deal it's fog" and I said yea, go ahead and turn on the defroster. Cause once it started forming . . . even my Camero had some of it that would form; that clear gelatinous material right under the vent, right out of the output vents of the heater where it meets the windshield. And I would have that stuff literally lined up across it. You can't hardly wipe it off. It's like having Armor All on your windshield, only it doesn't stay fog free. It makes it fog up.

[BARRY] I'm wondering about when it grew out of your eyes?

[JIM] I don't remember that.

[BARRY] You don't?

[JIM] You mean the fibrous stuff?

[BARRY] The fibers growing out of your eyes.

[JIM] Yea, the fibers grew out of my eyes, my toenails, underneath my fingernails, out of my nose, up my butt, I mean you name it.

[BARRY] Yesterday you talked about stirring the drink. Do you have any speculation about that in light of new knowledge?

[JIM] No, I just think the stuff protonizes building groups into r-groups.

[BARRY] R-groups?

[JIM] Yea. It's a great polymerization initiator as it's called. And for that I think DuPont would love to get a hold of this stuff. It does that to the point of being a fault. It is potentially dangerous. That's why I thought I was going to die, because it polymerized everything. It was a good way to end up as plastic in your body.

[BARRY] It polymerized your eyes?

[JIM] No, [?] [?] the fiber stuff.

[BARRY] What's that now?

[JIM] Don't know.

[BARRY] When did that happen?

[JIM] Almost every time, even before I got nuked, when I was working the material. Even at the laboratory scale. We both, T and myself, had the effects of these fibers that would grow out from under our fingernails when we would go to grab another fuel cell's worth of charcoal or something. When you went to reach for it, it would give you trouble. Also, over baking soda and water in a pan it would do that. You know, if you held your hand over the baking soda and water, your fingernails and fingers would ache and you would see these fibers growing from out from under the fingernails.

[BARRY] Why did you have baking soda and water in the pan?

[JIM] We thought it would help neutralize some of this material. I'm not sure it had any effect. Inconclusive. If anything I think it helped form it.

[BARRY] So, when did that stop?

[JIM] It was one of the first things to appear and the first things to disappear.

[BARRY] How long did you glow in the dark?

[JIM] I don't know. I couldn't see in the dark.

[BARRY] How did you find out that you glowed in the dark? When did you find out that you glowed in the dark? And how long did it take you stop?

[JIM] I found out from other people telling me.

[BARRY] Under what circumstances did you glow in the dark?

[JIM] The first time I heard about it was going into town after I had been nuked.

[BARRY] Going into what town?

[JIM] Into Baker after I got nuked up at the mine site. That's when I was told I glowed.

[BARRY] And was it dark?

[JIM] Yea, it was night.

[BARRY] And you glowed in response to light being on you or just glowed all by yourself.

[JIM] I think I had a visible aura. Actually fairly bright considering T's not one to ever mention anything like that. He's a real . . . you know, I don't believe I'm seeing this so I'm not going to mention it. Unless it is so bright that you can't ignore it. When he brought it to my attention I took it as being fairly factual. I was told that for three days or more after I got nuked.

[BARRY] Who else told you?

[JIM] His wife, RH. LM, when I first got back to Salt Lake City, noticed. There was a number of folks that pointed it out. How bright it was at that point compared to before, I couldn't tell you. I do know that a lot of those visual effects were, I don't know, very short term I think. It was pretty fuzzy in those days. But definitely it depended somewhat on what I was doing and the mode, whether I was active or . . . and there was only a few day that I was able to get very active.

[BARRY] Do you think it was in your sweat? When you were more active what would happen?

[JIM] The sweat, I could smell this stuff. To me it smelled like fabric softener, my sweat. In fact the smell of fabric softener used on clothing I wear today makes me sick to my stomach because of it. My clothes would make people sick to handle them.

[BARRY] How did it make people sick?

[JIM] They all, unanimously, said that it was an oily substance that clung to their skin and they couldn't wash off. Some of them reported tasting things through their skin while this stuff was on it. And very lethargic for days after the exposure. Very much so knocked out like I was.

[BARRY] And was it unpleasant?

[JIM] Apparently. T would like to sue my butt. But some people like to do that because they have an opportunity. I think T, on the other hand, got the opposite effect. In smaller doses like we were getting for the first days, I think I went for days, literally, with tons of energy before the final crash. But then there was some use of drugs, [?]. So I couldn't be absolutely certain. I shouldn't have been able to stay up for days.

[BARRY] But you were, literally, awake for days?

[JIM] Literally awake for days. Like little cat naps at best. And that's all that was needed. Until I got overdone and then it went extreme body slam for a year and a half.

[BARRY] So when we finally talked you into trying the peroxide, how did that work for you and what happened with that?

[JIM] I got rid of the background hallucination; that blue, bluish-purple, blue light, like in one or two doses. It made me so sick the first time I ate it that I felt like I was going to die. Very, very nauseous, disoriented etcetera, etcetera. My urine was literally a dark, dark, dark, dark, dark, dark brown; reddish. More red than . . . but I did not feel well.

[BARRY] Were you diagnosed by more than one doctor as having lead poisoning?

[JIM] They all . . . the first one in Salt Lake, they kinda went "I have no idea how to deal with this but your lead levels are multiple times lead, arsenic [TLV]."

[BARRY] TLV?

[JIM] Yeah, it's like a [heavy metal] has a TLV level where you are toxic and, you know, pound for pound are going to eat it. Well I was at, on lead, three or four times TLV initially. I was still twice the level on lead eighteen months later. Which is, I guess, the standard decay curve. Which I didn't know at the time. Then I took the hydrogen peroxide. In two weeks it went from twice [GLP] to very, very low levels.

[BARRY] Un-measurable?

[JIM] Just very, very low. Basically un-measurable.

[BARRY] Normal levels?

[JIM] Yeah.

[BARRY] So how long did you take the peroxide?

[JIM] Months.

[BARRY] How long did it feel bad when you took it?

[JIM] Only a few days.

[BARRY] And then what did it feel like?

[JIM] Drinking a coke too fast.

[BARRY] Fizzy?

[JIM] Yeah, bloated a little bit.

[BARRY] Any other effects from the peroxide?

[JIM] I really can't recall any.

[BARRY] Were there any other psychic effects that you knew about?

[JIM] I think the peroxide pretty well quenched both the positive and the negative.

[BARRY] That's probably a pretty important clue for something.

[BARRY] You were eating chelation type what?

[JIM] Drugs, stuff to help keep it out of your kidneys.

[BARRY] Where did you get the drugs?

[JIM] From B's [wife].

[BARRY] Is RB's wife a doctor?

[JIM] Yep.

[BARRY] Do you feel that the drugs were more effective or the peroxide?

[JIM] I only ate them for about a week. It seems like anyway, when I first got there. They didn't seem to have any profound effect that I could see. Other than they made me . . . I think ornery is a good word.

The following session occurred in Jim's trailer on 11/12/95. Jim and DM were present.

[JIM] So, I'm supposed to talk about the ionic currents or the . . ?

[DM] Who, what, where and when of the . . .

[JIM] OK, well we were doing samples from various locations of eastern Oregon and processing it in T's garage. Gold processing. We attempted a setup similar to what we are doing now only it was a recirculating column with a filter and all that stuff to take out the precipitates and mud that we had. Like a kiddy pool or something for our batch tank or, you know, it was a pretty good size . . . It wasn't a kiddy pool, it was actually a horse watering basin, I think. With this PVC column with charcoal in it and nuking it, through a masi. Doin' the trip, then sprinkling it over this carbon air cell that was forced air at the top and then blowing the air down through the carbon. Similar to what we did at the other one.

[DM] Was there a sprinkler in . . ?

[JIM] There was a sprinkler, literally, at the top. And it worked pretty good. But we had a bunch of leaks and stuff and in the course of cleaning up we noticed that we had a spot of water in the garage on the floor that would follow people around. I mean, whoever was closest to it, it would sit there and creep towards them.

[DM] Like, inches?

[JIM] Like, feet. Like going for you.

[DM] Was it clear water?

[JIM] It was clear. It was . . . it looked like water in all outward appearances. It didn't look muddy, but the stuff would literally, . . . We were playing with it cause it was by a foosball table. We played a couple games of foosball afterwards and we noticed that this thing had shifted like six or eight feet towards us. And so just for grins we had K, his old lady, sit in a chair on the other side of the puddle towards the door. But much, much closer to it; like two feet away. And the thing moved like a foot closer to her in the course of time taken to play a game of foosball.

[DM] Did it leave a wet trail, where it had been?

[JIM] Um.

[DM] Like was it spreading out wider or did it stay the same?

[JIM] No, it was fairly cohesive. That's one thing I can definitely say. Good question. Thank you. It was definitely fairly cohesive. In fact if anything it was getting more and more so that way. Um, it struck us as real, real odd! That particular day we had a lot of fly ash. In fact that one sample that Barry keeps referring to in the window of his house, came from that day of operations. I'd like to know where we got that sample from.

[DM] Was this something that you did before the accident where you got hurt?

[JIM] This was like two days before. We were still fine tuning things.

[DM] What was the sample in the horse trough? Was that from the same pond?

[JIM] No this was . . . We were trying it from all kinds of locations from eastern Oregon and I don't recall. That's the unfortunate part. But I do, I believe, recall that it was one of the clay type samples. Because I've always held to this baby shit colored next to purple or mustard colored clay next to purple and black and what have you and gray were the ones we got the most precious metals from. In fact more so than quartz bearing free gold and stuff by far out of the clay type materials.

[DM] So, could you tell where this water spilled out or did it just kind of . . . ?

[JIM] It was underneath, I think it was underneath the bin because that's why we missed it in cleanup.

[DM] Under the tank?

[JIM] Under the tank.

[DM] The horse tank?

[JIM] I think so. And that's just a guess. I don't recall but it seems like it would be logical that's why we missed it.

[DM] So it was a metal tank?

[JIM] Yep.

[DM] So this was recirculating fluid so whatever was in the tank was charged up and some water maybe spilled or maybe condensed underneath the tank?

[JIM] I think we volatilized it and it came back underneath it. I think that's what's continually happening in every one of these cases. Just like the fly ash we noticed was accumulating under the carbon air cell. A pan, but inside the tank, but not with the carbon. And I do recall that . . . See this column stood right up in the middle of the tank. It was all one little unit that we built. And so in thirty words or less I believe it accumulated underneath the barrel for much the same reason.

[DM] Um, fly ash as I understand it, that forms in a dry area and it stays dry?

[JIM] The fly ash I don't really know too much about. Other than when the charcoal was damp we could pan it out, we could separate it and we could work with it. When it was dry, it was out of there. I mean it was out of there! You couldn't touch it, catch it. This is why I have a problem with somewhat of the monoatomic gold, you know, sitting around in the dry state, because the only way keep it was wet. Or what I suspect was monoatomic gold I should say.

[DM] Ok, well this fly ash you saved that day, that was collected at someplace within the column is that right? Below the charcoal in the column?

[JIM] In the charcoal. Yes, the fly ash was always in the charcoal or it was underneath the pan.

[DM] But it was wet?

[JIM] Yes, but it was always wet when we could accumulate it. Off the carbon it was always when it was damp, we would roll it around in the pan to get that.

[DM] I wanted to ask you, on that setup did you have a fan on it blowing down through the column?

[JIM] Yes, down through the column.

[DM] And the air was blowing out where, on top of the horse trough?

[JIM] Before it got to the water we had it drop a ways before it hit the suds.

[DM] The exhaust air that you have been saying is electrically charged was that blowing directly onto the effluent in the horse trough?

[JIM] That is a good question. I don't remember well enough. I do recall only one thing, it was a pain in the butt; that's how come that water was splashed around. Because the way it came out, it blup, blup, blup out of that column.

[DM] Tell about the ionic wind.

[JIM] I'll try. The ionic wind is what I called it for lack of a better word. Cause primarily it was something that was first noted by K and T at their house in that they had a shower door that was real funky and a bathroom door that didn't latch very well. And when he'd shower off after working with this gold stuff, literally the wind would open up the bathroom door. Like blow it open type stuff. There was a great deal of air movement to it. Especially like shocks when you washed your hair or whatever.

[DM] So if you were in the bathroom taking a shower the door would blow open?

[JIM] Literally.

[DM] Just at one point, or continuously?

[JIM] When you first jumped in.

[DM] Right when you first hit the water?

[JIM] There is definitely a water reaction taking place, of some sort, with that gold. Because it was noteworthy, including B's, I mean they even remarked on the whole thing. It was highly charged. I built a little FET charge meter in my last days so I could see the polymer stuff flowing around because it would have enough of a charge that it would effect an FET meter. Like [dead] deflection.

[DM] Field Effect Transistor?

[JIM] Yea. It's like what you use to measure static electricity by it's field. Same type thing, exactly. I just built a dollar ninety eight one with stuff from Wacky Willie's and called it good. Never calibrated it or anything. But it was very . . .

[DM] I would like to do that again.

[JIM] We should have one while we are doing these things to see which way it's going.

[DM] I have heard of people mapping body auras and stuff with those. You can just kinda map where it is. That would be a real handy thing to use. So, did this just happen once or twice or continually like day after day did you get this effect where . . . ?

[JIM] I had that effect for five months afterwards.

[DM] My God!

[JIM] Yea, I mean it was real bad. In fact, I could generate a huge amount of static electricity by taking an article of clothing that I wore and have right near but not in contact with the shower head stream and it would charge the droplets to the point where they were making [neon] just tscht, tscht, tscht, tscht.

[DM] If you had this effect for five months, is this the five months when you were sleeping a lot?

[JIM] Um.

[DM] This was like the five months directly after . . . ?

[JIM] Directly after yea. I slept a lot and how would you say in Englis, this polymer stuff was driving me batty. It was a huge irritant to me. I mean there was times at night there would be so much static electricity when I would lie in bed and stuff, I couldn't sleep. I'd just lay there and tscht, tscht, tscht, tscht, tscht, tscht, there would be sparks going and all that other stuff. This was before I actually went to RB's house to convalesce. I was still kinda on my own in that apartment that I nuked from my presence. But it really bothered me because I could taste the stuff that it would pick up. It's almost like the polymer stuff. You know how you described how it ran across the picture frames and removed the gold plating down to the base metal just where it ran across. You could see it because it leaves a clean spot on the wall. And like she smoked and stuff so all this stuff it picked up I could taste directly I'd get in contact with it.